[Lindsey Graham]
Thank you both for your service. From my point of view, I'm sure every organization makes mistakes. If anybody has abused these programs to spy on their spouse, or to spy on their neighbor, or to do something in that fashion, I hope they go to jail. Because I think most of the people in the NSA would like that outcome because that's not exactly what you're there to do. Do you agree with that, General Alexander?
[General Alexander]
Senator, I agree that they should be punished, and depending on the action...
[Lindsey Graham]
Yea, I mean, whatever the appropriate punishment is, but they're outliers
[General Alexander]
That's right Senator. In fact, two of them were done under fuel grade article 15s. and when you actually look at what they did, you can see that, okay, we trained them, they immediately did something wrong, they got no return, oh by the way, they just asked the question they didn't get information back, but they did it wrong, and they were held accountable
[Lindsay Graham]
Good. The point is that when you do things wrong you should be held accountable and when you do things right you should be appreciated. I think both of you are trying to do things right to protect our nation and I appreciate everybody that works for you cause I know many of them and they're patriots as much anybody who criticizes the program. alright, did you tell the president of the United States what you just told us. That because of the government shutdown that our nation is less secure?
[James Clapper]
Yes. I discussed it yesterday
[Lindsay Graham]
What did he say? You scared the hell out of all of us, at least I'm scared. When you're telling me that 70% of the NSA is unable to go to work, not because they're necessary, but because of the statutes, the way it's worded, both of you have made very clear presentations to this committee that the government shutdown in a post 9/11 world is making this nation less safe. Is that right, General Alexander?
[General Alexander]
That's correct senator
[Lindsey Graham]
Is that right, Mr. Clapper?
[General Alexander]
Yes sir
[Lindsay Graham]
Well, to Mr. Gibbs who told the president, his political adviser and former press secretary, he advised the president to just watch the shutdown. do you think that's a responsible thing for the president to do as commander in chief. to not negotiate or just watch the shutdown. i'll give you my opinion. i think it's irresponsible for all of us to let it continue but where the hell is the commander in chief? if you really told him that - that our nation is less safe, and every day that goes by we're becoming less capable of protecting against potential terrorist attacks against the homeland and the approach is to just watch time go by, why aren't the members of the house and the senate and the white house right now to try to solve this problem? One of two things are true, you're telling us the truth, and the Federal Government leadership on both sides is ignoring it, particularly the Commander in Chief, or you're overstating the case. I think you're telling us the truth, so I'm not even going to go down the road you're overstating the case. But I want the american people to know there are shutdowns before 9/11, and there are shutdowns after 9/11, and there's a huge difference. And for the President of the United States or House Democrats to not negotiate is irresponsible. For our Republican Party not to try to find a way to end this mess is irresponsible. So I hope that the president will do more than watch. Now about 9/11. General Alexander, if we had the technology and the programs in place today, before 9/11, what would be the likelihood that we would have detected that attack?
[General Alexander]
Senator, my professional opinion it would have been very high
[Lindsey Graham]
You agree with that?
[James Clapper]
I do
[Lindsey Graham]
I am here to tell the american people that if we had in place today, before 9/11, the 19 hijackers who were here in the country, most of them on legal status, talking to people abroad, we would have known what they were up to. we would have known why the guy was just taking flying lessons to take the plane off but didn't pay for flying lessons to land it, which is kind of odd to me. I want to take flying lessons to learn how to land the plane. So at the end of the day, my question to both of you is simple: let's reform this program where it's gotten out of line, let's be sensitive to constitutional rights we all have, but here's my question. Is what's being proposed in terms of reform, will it make us less able to detect the next 9/11? Are we going back to that pre-9/11 mentality? That's the question for me. Is the congress taking us back to a time when we could not pick up a threat that was right in front of us?
[James Clapper]
Well senator there are several proposal that have been proposed in the form of bills, and I guess our basic reaction to this is we are open to changes to make this more transparent, for more oversight, but in doing so we don't want to overcorrect such that we lose the operational utility and agility of these programs
[Lindsey Graham]
Yep. Same for you, General Alexander, will you tell me when you think we've crossed that line?
[General Alexander]
Senator, absolutely. I think it is my responsibility to tell you and the Director of National Intelligence and the President
[Lindsey Graham]
Very quickly, about the times in which we live. Are there active efforts by terrorist organizations to penetrate the United States
[General Alexander]
Yes
[James Clapper]
Absolutely, sir, as we speak
[Lindsey Graham]
Do you believe there are people probably already here as part of a 5th column movement
[James Clapper]
There is sleeper presence. I wouldn't call it a unified 5th column. There are various entities
[Lindsey Graham]
Fair enough, and I'll end with this thought. My goal is to make sure that a known terrorist, Zawihiri, who took bin Laden's place, I want to know who he's talking to. Is that a fair thing for me to want for my country?
[James Clapper]
Yes sir, and I think it's a fair requirement for any citizen
[Lindsey Graham]
And is it also fair to say that before you keep the content or have to do something with the content that you have to get a warrant?
[James Clapper]
...
[Lindsey Graham]
Last question. Are we at war, as a nation, with radical Islam, or are we fighting a crime, and what's the difference when it comes to intelligence between fighting a war, and fighting a criminal enterprise?
[James Clapper]
Well one difference, it's more of a trade craft difference, is the evidentiary standard we're dealing with, because we're dealing with the whispy hints, bits, and pieces of information that probably doesn't meet the probable cause standard. That's another consideration we have with changes to these laws
[General Alexander]
Senator, I do believe it's a war on terrorism, my words, and that what we're seeing today is going to get worse with what we're seeing go through the Middle East. What's going on in Syria, the actions in Iraq over the last week, and in Afghanistan. In the week concluding 23 September, 97 people were killed in Kenya, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan and over 1000 injured. And if you look at the relative safety we have here, it is no accident. It is the work of our military and intelligence community keeping this country safe. And we need the tools to do that
